Thursday, December 04, 2008
Defining Freedom at Amazon Communities
I started a thread at Amazon Communities here.
The introductory post was this..
The introductory post was this..
I'm very curious about how people define freedom, and whether I can persuade others that: 1) The capacity for free will is axiomatic to the human condition, and; 2) Freedom is the epitomizing goal of free will.
It's a topic I've been pursuing across several fora, so now is the time to raise it here.
Many people use the word freedom without thinking very hard about what it means. It was interesting, though not surprising, that Obama and McCain both answered "Freedom" right off the bat at the Saddleback event when Rick Warren asked each of them what was "worth dying for." But if those three men were put into separate rooms and asked to write down a definition of freedom, how much would their answers differ? How much would the answers differ among the people in this community?
One's belief about the nature of freedom leads to very different conclusions about the nature of responsibility and the source of moral rules. It's been especially intriguing to discover how common it is for people to deny that free will is even real.
Consider these five archetypal attitudes about freedom and free will. (The first is generally the one to which I ascribe.)
1) Free will and freedom are real because each individual is ultimately responsible for his or her choices, and there is no God to whom we are subject. We are "doomed to freedom." Jean-Paul Sartre
2) They are real because God is free, and God made us in His image so that we can experience everlasting free communion in Heaven. "[T]he truth shall make you free... no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Jesus, according to John
3) They are just useful fictions... feedback mechanisms compatible with overall determinism. They help us pursue our inborn drives for sex, status, and safety. "People make history, but not in circumstances of their own choosing." Karl Marx
4) Freedom is not real since our fates are predestined and governed by an omnipotent God. Everything that happens is "meant to be" as part of the divine plan. "Eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others." John Calvin.
5) They are real, but they depend on achieving self-mastery, and recognizing that materialism and social fashions can make no claim on us unless we allow them. "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Kris Kristofferson
Also, here is how I asked the question elsewhere.
George Bush has said that "God is the author of liberty." Mitt Romney has said, "Freedom requires religion," and that "Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God." How would you define freedom? How did it originate? Is freedom possible without belief in God?
These links show what I've done elsewhere to advance the discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WYR1qXnO2M
http://www.definefreedom.blogspot.com/
http://www.rkey.com/essays/Simon_DCI_02.pdf
So, I'm interested in seeing what kinds of definitions people offer here. Thanks.
Comments:
<< Home
Друзья.
Если вы интересуетесь немного политикой, то должны были заметить - эти резкие волнения в странах Африки
возникли неспроста.
Есть 2 версии этих событий - "официальная" и "неофициальная", и обе версии скорее уводят в сторону от реальных фактов.
[b]Версия 1:[/b] Каддафи - тиран и самодержец, стрелял в мирных граждан, поэтому его надо бы убрать.
[b]Версия 2:[/b] на самом деле Европе с Америкой захотелось немного Ливийской нефти, и они решили навести небольшой "дебош"
Рассмотрим версию 1.
Да, Каддафи уже тот ещё старик, ему конечно пора бы и на пенсию. Но известно ли вам, что конкретно в Ливии
народ имеет весьма высокие преференции при его правлении? Учителя получают под $3.000, выплаты безработным
порядка $1000 и так далее. Да, он стал укрощать группки взбунтовавшихся бедуинов, но кто-нибудь понимает
реальные причины этих бунтов?
Эта версия не выдерживает никакой критики.
Версия 2.
Нефть Ливии? Да, она отличается высоким качеством, Ливийская нефть очень чистая. Но её там не так много.
Да и к тому же, зачем тогда будоражить Египет и прочие африканские государства, которые весь прошлый
год вообще никого не тревожили и не волновали?! А тут вдруг - "тираны", "изверги" и т.п.
Да, эта ситуация дополнительно подогрела цены на нефть. Отдельным корпорациям это выгодно.
Но истина короче.
Каддафи не так давно начал объединять ближневосточные страны под идеей перейти на расчёт
за нефть и товары НЕ долларами, НЕ евро, а альтернативой всему этому. И Египет - одна из стран,
которая это поддержала...
Подробнее - здесь:
http://rutube.ru/tracks/4247342.html
Однако в популярных СМИ это никогда не скажут.
P.S. У Саддама Хусейна, кстати, тоже были такие начинания. Вообще, после кризиса ооочень многие
страны стали задумываться об ИЗБАВЛЕНИИ ОТ ЗАВИСИМОСТИ ОТ ДОЛЛАРА. Рано или поздно
это произойдёт. ФРС уже некуда понижать ставки.
Распространите это где сможете. Люди должны знать правду.
Кстати, это тоже по теме: Франция перенесла вторжение в Ливию на сутки, гибели, Военная операция Запада в Ливии, об, Россия отказалась участвовать в военной операции в Ливии, своих, Великобритания отчиталась об уничтожении ливийских ВВС, прекращении
Если вы интересуетесь немного политикой, то должны были заметить - эти резкие волнения в странах Африки
возникли неспроста.
Есть 2 версии этих событий - "официальная" и "неофициальная", и обе версии скорее уводят в сторону от реальных фактов.
[b]Версия 1:[/b] Каддафи - тиран и самодержец, стрелял в мирных граждан, поэтому его надо бы убрать.
[b]Версия 2:[/b] на самом деле Европе с Америкой захотелось немного Ливийской нефти, и они решили навести небольшой "дебош"
Рассмотрим версию 1.
Да, Каддафи уже тот ещё старик, ему конечно пора бы и на пенсию. Но известно ли вам, что конкретно в Ливии
народ имеет весьма высокие преференции при его правлении? Учителя получают под $3.000, выплаты безработным
порядка $1000 и так далее. Да, он стал укрощать группки взбунтовавшихся бедуинов, но кто-нибудь понимает
реальные причины этих бунтов?
Эта версия не выдерживает никакой критики.
Версия 2.
Нефть Ливии? Да, она отличается высоким качеством, Ливийская нефть очень чистая. Но её там не так много.
Да и к тому же, зачем тогда будоражить Египет и прочие африканские государства, которые весь прошлый
год вообще никого не тревожили и не волновали?! А тут вдруг - "тираны", "изверги" и т.п.
Да, эта ситуация дополнительно подогрела цены на нефть. Отдельным корпорациям это выгодно.
Но истина короче.
Каддафи не так давно начал объединять ближневосточные страны под идеей перейти на расчёт
за нефть и товары НЕ долларами, НЕ евро, а альтернативой всему этому. И Египет - одна из стран,
которая это поддержала...
Подробнее - здесь:
http://rutube.ru/tracks/4247342.html
Однако в популярных СМИ это никогда не скажут.
P.S. У Саддама Хусейна, кстати, тоже были такие начинания. Вообще, после кризиса ооочень многие
страны стали задумываться об ИЗБАВЛЕНИИ ОТ ЗАВИСИМОСТИ ОТ ДОЛЛАРА. Рано или поздно
это произойдёт. ФРС уже некуда понижать ставки.
Распространите это где сможете. Люди должны знать правду.
Кстати, это тоже по теме: Франция перенесла вторжение в Ливию на сутки, гибели, Военная операция Запада в Ливии, об, Россия отказалась участвовать в военной операции в Ливии, своих, Великобритания отчиталась об уничтожении ливийских ВВС, прекращении
# posted by 
: 7:28 AM
: 7:28 AM
Here is Google's translation from the Russian comment. It cuts off abruptly, as does the original.
My own occasional comments on politics, including US intervention in Libya, are now appearing at
www.secularprogress.com
Friends.
If you are interested in a little politics, you must have noticed - this sudden unrest in Africa
have an ulterior motive.
There are 2 versions of these events - the "official" and "informal" and both versions are probably gone away from the real facts.
[B] Version 1: [/ b] Gaddafi - a tyrant and autocrat, shot at civilians, so it should be removed.
[B] Version 2: [/ b] in fact Europe and America wanted a little Libyan oil, and they decided to put a small "riot"
Consider the version 1.
Yes, Qaddafi has one more old man, he of course it would be time and retired. But did you know that specifically in Libya
people have a very high preference under his rule? Teachers receive a $ 3.000, paid the unemployed
about $ 1000 and so on. Yes, he was tame small group of rebellious Bedouins, but someone understands
the real causes of these riots?
This version does not hold water.
Version 2.
Oil Libya? Yes, it is of high quality, Libyan oil is very clean. But she was not so much.
And besides, why would haunt Egypt and other African nations, which the whole of last
year in general no one disturbed and worried? And then suddenly - "tyrants," "Monsters", etc.
Yes, this situation is further fueled the price of oil. Individual corporations are profitable.
But the truth is shorter.
Gaddafi is not so long ago began to combine Middle Eastern country under the idea to move to the calculation
for oil and products are not dollars, not euros, and an alternative to all this. And Egypt - one of the countries
which is supported ...
Read more - here:
http://rutube.ru/tracks/4247342.html
However, in the popular media, it will never say.
P.S. Saddam Hussein, incidentally, also had such undertakings. Generally, after the crisis, sooo many
the country began to think about getting rid of reliance on the U.S.. Sooner or later
it happens. The Fed has no place to lower rates.
Spread it where you can. People need to know the truth.
By the way, is also on the topic: France suffered an invasion of Libya in the day, death, military operation in western Libya, about, Russia has refused to participate in military operations in Libya, their, the United Kingdom reported on the destruction of the Libyan Air Force, the cessation of
Post a Comment
My own occasional comments on politics, including US intervention in Libya, are now appearing at
www.secularprogress.com
Friends.
If you are interested in a little politics, you must have noticed - this sudden unrest in Africa
have an ulterior motive.
There are 2 versions of these events - the "official" and "informal" and both versions are probably gone away from the real facts.
[B] Version 1: [/ b] Gaddafi - a tyrant and autocrat, shot at civilians, so it should be removed.
[B] Version 2: [/ b] in fact Europe and America wanted a little Libyan oil, and they decided to put a small "riot"
Consider the version 1.
Yes, Qaddafi has one more old man, he of course it would be time and retired. But did you know that specifically in Libya
people have a very high preference under his rule? Teachers receive a $ 3.000, paid the unemployed
about $ 1000 and so on. Yes, he was tame small group of rebellious Bedouins, but someone understands
the real causes of these riots?
This version does not hold water.
Version 2.
Oil Libya? Yes, it is of high quality, Libyan oil is very clean. But she was not so much.
And besides, why would haunt Egypt and other African nations, which the whole of last
year in general no one disturbed and worried? And then suddenly - "tyrants," "Monsters", etc.
Yes, this situation is further fueled the price of oil. Individual corporations are profitable.
But the truth is shorter.
Gaddafi is not so long ago began to combine Middle Eastern country under the idea to move to the calculation
for oil and products are not dollars, not euros, and an alternative to all this. And Egypt - one of the countries
which is supported ...
Read more - here:
http://rutube.ru/tracks/4247342.html
However, in the popular media, it will never say.
P.S. Saddam Hussein, incidentally, also had such undertakings. Generally, after the crisis, sooo many
the country began to think about getting rid of reliance on the U.S.. Sooner or later
it happens. The Fed has no place to lower rates.
Spread it where you can. People need to know the truth.
By the way, is also on the topic: France suffered an invasion of Libya in the day, death, military operation in western Libya, about, Russia has refused to participate in military operations in Libya, their, the United Kingdom reported on the destruction of the Libyan Air Force, the cessation of
<< Home
